Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, a tentative expedition to observe a chasmfiend chrysalis and gather information ended in an unexpected Parshendi sighting and a collapsing bridge. This week, Kaladin and Shallan find themselves the only two who somehow survived the fall, with one day to make their way back through the chasms to the warcamp before the next highstorm hits. No pressure, though.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Chapter 69: Nothing
Point of View: Kaladin, Shallan
Setting: the chasms
Symbology: Pattern, Jezrien, Shalash
IN WHICH Kaladin falls; Syl screams; Kaladin gets a rush of Stormlight and hits the bottom; he wakes, hurting but alive; Shallan Davar appears around a corner, and they scare the daylights out of one another; she explains the bridge’s emergency latch; they search the bodies nearby, but no one else survived the 200-foot fall; Kaladin mendaciously credits windspren for protecting the two of them, though privately he wonders how he saved her as well as himself; they confirm that neither Dalinar nor Adolin are among the corpses; however, there are dead spearmen and Parshendi, verifying that there was a skirmish of some sort; they determine that a highstorm is due the following night, and that they should try to get back to the warcamps through the chasms; Shallan reflects on the fall, and Pattern’s speculation that the Stormlight had somehow kept her alive; she assumes that somehow she’d inadvertently saved Kaladin, too, and is grateful that he’s superstitious enough to believe the folktales about the windspren; as they trek through the chasm, Shallan can’t keep from noticing the beauty of the plant life here in the chasm; Kaladin is less than chivalrous, but finally takes Shallan’s pack of waterskins while she carries her satchel; Shallan tries to be pleasant—if snarky—and Kaladin snarls back; they snap back and forth and toss accusations at each other, getting louder and louder until they hear a noise that puts a stop to it: the sound of an approaching chasmfiend; they run.
Quote of the Week
“Storms,” she said, hurrying to catch up. “That was supposed to be lighthearted. What would it take to make you relax, bridgeboy?”
“I guess I’m just a… what was it again? A ‘hateful man’?”
“I haven’t seen any proof to the contrary.”
“That’s because you don’t care to look, lighteyes. Everyone beneath you is just a plaything.”
“What?” she said, taking it like a slap to the face. “Where would you get that idea?”
“It’s obvious.”
“To whom? To you only? When have you seen me treat someone of a lesser station like a plaything? Give me one example.”
“When I was imprisoned,” he said immediately, “for doing what any lighteyes would have been applauded for doing.”
“And that was my fault?” she demanded.
“It’s the fault of your entire class. Each time one of us is defrauded, enslaved, beaten, or broken, the blame rests upon all of you who support it. Even indirectly.”
“Oh please,” she said. “The world isn’t fair? What a huge revelation! Some people in power abuse those they have power over? Amazing! When did this start happening?”
I really do like Kaladin. Honest, I do. But this particular attitude annoys me no end and makes me want to pound on his head. Honestly, how can his imprisonment possibly be construed as an example of her treating people of lesser station as playthings? Later in the conversation he brings up the boots, which she acknowledges as a fair point, but her point is much stronger: he’s looking for excuses to do what he wants to do and blame someone else for “making him” that way. Which is the whole root of what’s going on with him right now.
Commentary
This really launches the worst stretch of Kaladin’s arc, in my mind. He no longer has access to Stormlight, or to his constant companion, confidant, adviser, and sense of humor. Arguably, with the loss of Syl’s company, his sense of perspective—already skewed by imprisonment—suffers almost irreparable damage.
If you were following the discussion this past week, a very cogent statement was made regarding the Windrunner bond. To boil it way down, the synergy between the behavior and the relationship is one of constructive interference—but it goes both ways. The desired behavior reinforces the budding relationship, and the strengthening relationship reinforces the desired behavior, and it’s just not possible to have one without the other. But “constructive interference” can be a two-edged sword—when the results are undesirable, it’s also known as a vicious cycle.
Allow me to tell a story, completely unrelated to epic fantasy. Many years ago, I was working on an aerospace project, and we got word that the test flight was returning in… interesting condition. When the aircraft came in for its landing, the guys in the control tower burst out laughing and asked the flight crew incredulously what on earth they’d done with their tail. The flight crew was baffled—they hadn’t known anything was wrong, though the rudder had seemed a bit sluggish on the way in. Turned out that in the testing, the last event in the kick test had set up a harmonic oscillation in the rudder that essentially tore the tail off. (Let me tell you, it’s a weird feeling to look at a 707 whose tail fin appears to have been ripped away like a piece of paper. From then on, the call sign for the aircraft series was “Gecko”—because how many airplanes can still fly with 1/3 of a tail?) But the point is, this test has been done with dozens and dozens of aircraft; this one was structured a little differently, and when the rudder was kicked under certain conditions, instead of coming back to a center balance, each flip of the rudder created further momentum, until it was flipping back and forth so hard the metal couldn’t take the strain, and it tore apart.
I’m sure you can see the analogy. When things were going well, every honorable thing Kaladin did reinforced his bond with Syl, and as she got stronger, his powers and his ability to do honorable things increased. But when things went badly, each vengeful impulse tore at the bond, weakening it; the less she could influence him, the more his instincts turned from honor to vengeance. Finally, it’s torn, and there’s no more Stormlight. No more tiny piece of a god to tweak his nose when his thoughts turn sour. No more Windrunning, no more incredible healing, no more Kaladin Stormblessed.
Stormwatch
This is, of course, the same day as the previous chapter. The countdown is at ten.
Sprenspotting
I have to start this with a series of quotations:
Syl screamed, a terrified, painful sound that vibrated Kaladin’s very bones. In that moment, he got a breath of Stormlight, life itself.
—-
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE? The distant voice sounded like rumbling thunder.
—-
I got some Stormlight right at the end, he thought. I survived. But that scream! It haunted him, echoing in his mind. It had sounded too much like the scream he’d heard when touching the duelist’s Shardblade in the arena.
The following is speculation, of course, but I have suspected that what happened here was Sylphrena voluntarily spending her last remaining Physical connection to grant Kaladin the Stormlight he would need to survive and heal from the fall. Without sufficient autonomy to determine for herself what “honor” looks like, she had yet enough autonomy to make the choice to sacrifice herself to save his life. I think that the rumbling-thunder-voice is the Stormfather speaking to Syl in the Cognitive realm, because he doesn’t think the outcome was worth the price.
However… I feel like I’m missing something; I can’t quite put my finger on some elusive piece. Why did her choice have a result so similar to the Recreance? Or am I wrong? Did Kaladin manage to pull the Stormlight through her, against her will, and destroy her Physical presence in the process?
Gah. I’m missing something; I think there’s something about this event that should give us a clue as to what really happened at the Recreance. What we’ve actually been told so far came from either handed-down tradition (in-world “Words of Radiance”), or the external observation of a soldier (Dalinar’s vision). I think there’s a hint in here of the spren’s perspective on what the Recreance was about, and I can’t tease it out.
*sigh*
Help a girl out here, folks. Pummel this around and see if you can get hold of a thread to pull.
And having now mixed my metaphors into a muddy brown paste, let’s move on, shall we?
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
Trust Shallan to get distracted by the local flora at a time like this! To be fair, though, this would be a unique experience for her. Kaladin has been in the chasms many times before, and besides, he’s not that interested in plants unless he can use them (see: knobweed). Given Shallan’s interests, of course she’s going to be fascinated: while some of these plants are varieties of plants she’s known elsewhere, some may be unique to the chasms. It’s a good thing she has her Memories, because there’s really not a lot of time for study just now.
Ars Arcanum
It’s notable that Pattern could only speculate as to how the Stormlight was able to preserve Shallan despite a fall of 200+ feet. As she says, it proved how little she—or he—knew about her abilities. It doesn’t help matters to have a false data point, either; she’s trying to not only account for saving herself, but for somehow saving Kaladin as well.
It does make me wonder, though. What are the mechanics of an event like this? Did she fall and then heal? Or did the Stormlight somehow protect her from injury in the first place? The same questions should probably apply to Kaladin, but I can at least think that Windrunner reflexes would let him use Stormlight to slow the fall, and then heal himself from whatever other injuries were sustained. But what does a Lightweaver have in that regard? She’s got Illumination and Transformation; how do those help? Or… is it like the explanation in the (officially not-yet-canonical) Jasnah excerpt, where someone holding enough Stormlight will just immediately and automatically heal from any injury short of a crushing blow to the head?
Heraldic Symbolism
The Heralds for this chapter are, appropriately enough, those associated with the respective Orders of our two would-be (or wouldn’t-be) Radiants: Jezrien for the Windrunner and Shalash for the Lightweaver. Suitable, since it’s only their bonds that allowed them to survive. They’re also singularly apt in the roles these two take, however faulty their execution: Kaladin takes the lead (though he doesn’t do much protecting), while Shallan is both bluntly honest and determinedly artistic despite the desperate situation.
Shipping Wars
And thus begins the series of events leading to the Kaladin/Shallan ship—a ship which I most fervently disavow. While the trope of “they fight and fight and all of a sudden they’re in love” is a staple of romance novels, and is not infrequently seen in fantasy, it’s hard to write believably, IMO. This is one (of many) reasons that I really hope Sanderson doesn’t decide to bring Kaladin and Shallan together; all wishful fanfic aside included, it would be bloody awful trying to make these two complement one other while maintaining both continuity and any semblance of credibility.
There. That ought to keep us busy until next week, when these crazy kids have a narrow escape from a nightmare.
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. Believe it or not, she used to be an engineer, which is how she realized that she loved writing. Go figure.
When we see Kaladin fall from a height, stormlight explodes from him on impact. The release of stormlight seems to absorb the kinetic energy of the fall.
OT3 aside, Kaladin and Shallan’s arc here seems to echo Kaladin and Adolin’s arc. First hostility and then friendship. I think their abysmal emotional intelligence will cause all sorts of drama until Kaladin settles into a solid friendship with the two of them.
This part of Kaladin’s story arc was pretty dark, but I think it’s going to alter his attitude towards life significantly, and especially towards Syl.
I agree, Kaladin and Shallan aren’t a good romantic match. They’ll make pretty good friends, though, after they learn to actually communicate with people other than their spren.
Alice, I support your theory that Syl somehow someway took an affirmative action that allowed Kaladin just enough Stormlight for him to survive the fall.
I think the “what have you done” quote (which I agree with you was said by the Stormfather) was because had Syl not done what she did, Kaladin would have died. The Syl would be “free” (in the Stormfather’s mind) of her connection with the Son of Honor. As one of his “daughters”, the Stormfather is against spren (at least honorspren) from initiating the Nahal bond. Her saving Kaladin (or allowing him to save himself) kept in tact the bond between Syl and Kaladin. It also kept alive the possibility that had Kaladin continued to veer away from his instincts of honor, then Syl would eventually die in the same manner that the spren who were bonded to the KR died during the Recreance.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I just want to say that the constant complaints about Kaladin’s attitude towards lighteyes is really starting to bug me. Does Shallan directly deserve his abuse? Probably not but it is completely understandable and he is not wrong that all lighteyes are to blame for their treatment of darkeyes. What is he supposed to say? Yes sir, whatever you say sir, thank you sir may I please have another? Would anyone have this opinion if Kaladin was a tortured African American slave put in command of an Army in the Civil War?
That being said, I do agree with Dalinar that the best thing Kaladin could do for his people is to play the role in a Jackie Robinson mold. Suck it up, take it and lead by being the best but I can not and will not blame someone for choosing to speak out and act against it if they so choose. If no one is allowed to point out the problem, nothing will ever change.
wingracer @@.-@ – “he is not wrong that all lighteyes are to blame for their treatment of darkeyes.” I have to disagree with you on that. Holding Shallan responsible for Elhokar’s decision is childish. For that matter, Kaladin didn’t have any general complaints about lighteyes for most of his life. Wistiow was a good man and a good citylord; the darkeyes in hearthstone, while they sometimes complained about life, didn’t have any reason to blame the lighteyes for it. I don’t believe Wistiow was alone in being a good lighteyes – in fact, I would bet that in the large majority, there’s far less conflict between lighteyes and darkeyes than Kaladin would admit.
Is it a good system? Meh. Does it sometimes put unscrupulous people in a position to abuse others? Of course – show me a system that doesn’t! Does it sometimes create intolerable conditions for some people, while others seem to have it easier? Again, of course – but show me a system that doesn’t. The problem, IMO, is not lighteyes and darkeyes, or a social system that is very hierarchical in nature – the problem is human nature and uncontrolled selfishness.
I’m not the kind of reader who gets angry at Kaladin for his feelings and reactions, especially when the details of Alethi social structure are involved. His journey has always been a struggle to understand people as individuals apart from their group affiliations, just as he wants to be considered on his own merits. As we’ve read and discussed the low points of Kaladin’s arc in WoR, I’ve maintained that a lot of readers are too harsh in their judgments of him.
At this point, I don’t think Kaladin is under any obligation to become a Knight Radiant. He neither asked for, nor was prepared for the bond with Syl. It’s hard for me to agree that the “rules” of the Nahel bond with Syl are binding and paramount under those conditions. The damage to the bond results from a disparity between Syl’s expectations and Kaladin’s actions, but I can’t say that Kaladin’s behavior rises above anything more than frustrating because we know the direction his arc must take.
There are interesting parallels between Kaladin and the bonding spren, especially the Stormfather. Both are deeply wounded by their past experiences with power structures and people they don’t quite understand. Both are justified in feeling burned by their suffering at the hands of others. Because of that suffering, both are reticent to trust members of the same group who harmed them before. We hear independently from Pattern (in his matter-of-fact way) and from the Stormfather that Nahel bonds are expected to end in the death of the bonding spren, based on their interpretation of the Recreance. Yet, the spren and the Stormfather in particular, don’t come in for heavy criticism of their distrust toward humans.
I’m glad that Kaladin and Shallan have breakthrough in their future and decide to learn about each other. Afterward, Kaladin does rightfully feel sheepish for making assumptions about the ease of Shallan’s life. But I do think he’s justified in seeing the institution of lighteyed power as oppressive because many of his interactions with it have been negative.
I just reread the full book with my boyfriend, who was reading for the first time. His thoughts about what happened during the fall that were similar to Alice’s. His notion was that when Kaladin made that last desperate inhalation, Syl allowed her being to be taken into his body in place of the Stormlight he couldn’t access.
I agree with Alice that we are seeing Kaladin here at a low point – both literally and figuratively. He is frightened at the ostensible loss of Syl as well as his surge-binding powers. He is in a perilous situation where he might conceivably be able to find a place in the chasms amenable to his climbing above the flood water level. However, he is honor bound to save Adolin’s ‘betrothed’ even if he dislikes her. Her snarkiness certainly doesn’t help his mood and leads to a series of mutual shouted insults. Of course, he is wrong to blame Shallan for anything bad that has happened to him – other than being forced to give up his boots (a relatively minor matter for which she has apologized). Had she been less snarky and more empathetic or realistic, she would have realized that taunting and arguing is counterproductive. They need to marshal all their resources to escape what could easily be a death-trap. Even Shallan’s stormlight healing power would be insufficient if the expected flood smashed her head violently against a chasm wall. As to the reconciliation and mutual admiration that develops subsequently in the chasms, that may or may not lead to a romantic involvement in the next book. I can see it either way and would prefer not to prejudge the issue. Certainly stranger matches have occurred in the real world, and they share high intelligence and curiousity. Moreover, Kaladin needs Shallan’s optimism; while Shallan needs Kaladin’s unshakeable support and intense interest. However, she is physically attracted to Adolin who has been a better match to her personality. So, we’ll just have to wait and see what develops.
Halien @6 – Nice observation; I hadn’t actually considered the inherent contradiction in Kaladin’s attitudes. He wants to be valued individually, and yet he can’t readily grant lighteyes the individual valuations he so much craves. Fascinating…
::steeples fingers thoughtfully::
Something I have to constantly remind myself – and hence, y’all get it too – is that there is a difference between “understandable” and “justifiable”. It’s understandable that Kaladin holds all lighteyes responsible for his treatment – but it’s really not justifiable, because there are only a few who actually gave him the treatment he so resents.
@7 STBLST
Fear is always lurking in the background of Kaladin’s thoughts, even when it’s not rational. He keeps telling Syl he’s afraid that the lighteyes would find a way to take away their bond and his growing powers.
He is duty-bound to protect her, but it ends up being just as much of her saving him as him saving her.
On the one hand, I think some people feel sympathy for Kaladin because this particular hierarchical system, like slavery in the US, is based on physical characteristics that he had no control over.
On the other hand, I think some people get frustrated with him because when he perceives mistreatment (which is different from when mistreatment actually occurs), his immediate reaction is to sink to, or even below, the level of his “oppressors.”
His ethos is all wrong.
I must be the only fan of this series that ships Shalladin. Don’t really have anything against Adolin, I guess I just want Shallan and Kaladin to be happy together…
@@@@@ Alice
FWIW, we have the same questions.
I interpreted the ALL CAPS as Stormfather yelling at Kaladin, as if Stormfather thought Kal sucked the life out of Syl or some such. Your take(s) makes much sense too. Yep, it’s gotta be related to the Recreance somehow and we are missing a piece of the puzzle.
As to the mechanics of Shallan surviving the fall…goose egg, I gots nothin’.
I agree completely that the Kaladin/Shallan ship shouldn’t sail. But it is worth pointing out that while this may be the low point for Kaladin, Shallan is responsible for helping him start back up. The understanding he gets in the next chapter about being able to smile while broken is something he really needs to learn to get past these destructive bouts of extreme emo.
@10 gomiller
I agree with most of what you’re saying, but I don’t think there is any general requirement for Kaladin to be a “better person” than the people who enjoy higher status and more comfortable lives at the expense of people like him. We’d all like him to be the better man because we want to see him grow as a protector and an exemplar to everyone.
Everyone should be decent to everyone else, but when you come from the lower part of the pile, I’m willing to cut you more slack than those at the top.
@12 Ways
Don’t all the Stormfather’s interactions with Kaladin occur in all caps? I remember having the impression that we only see his indoor voice in Dalinar’s PoV. The Stormfather is frustrating because he seems angry and bitter all the time with a few expressions of regret. For all that he feels betrayed by humanity, he’s also remarkably non-interventionist.
He delivers Honor’s visions according to the Shard’s wishes, but he’s reluctant to bond with Dalinar. He shares detailed information about his nature, but he’s silent about the Recreance. He tries to persuade Syl not to bond, but takes no real action to prevent her from doing what she wants. It all leaves me wondering why, now that he’s part of the return of the Knights Radiant, he won’t at least help them understand the Recreance to avoid repeating it.
@11. Don’t worry, you aren’t the only one.
I’m obviously biased because I’m a lot more sympathetic to Kaladin as a character then Adolin, but I have two reasons.
1) Adolin’s romancing has always struck me as “similar” to Elend’s (Mistborn). Interesting, funny noble boy (Elend/Adolin) gets intriguing and “different” girl (Vin/Shallan) who shows up out of the blue. Obviously the personalities and the situations are all different, but just kind of a vibe.
2) Kaladin and Shallan “need” each other. Their personalities don’t mesh as well, but i don’t think that’s a major factor just yet. Kaladin needs someone to – basically – bring him happiness. Syl did it first, but he can’t marry Syl. Considering Shallan’s past, that’s pretty much a part of her nature. It’s not quite fair to her, but more often than not Kaladin’s going to need someone like that. As for Shallan, someone referenced this back in one of the earlier posts, but Shallan’s “always happy” schtick is a coping mechanism. She needs someone that she can be miserable with. I’m not quite sure how much self denial is harmful to a Lightweaver, but there has to be a breaking point. I just think that she’s more likely to confide in Kaladin, then in Adolin – if only because they are both “Broken.”
@14, Halien:
I agree 100%. My only gripe with Kaladin here is that he starts throwing around a lot of assumptions. As if no one else has ever been miserable. I could deal and understand his gripe when jailed, but here it just feels like he’s just lashing out for no reason.
@15 Keyblazing
Good observations about Kaladin and Shallan. I can see the “need” thing working out in a slightly different way. There’s an epigraph that characterizes the Lightweavers as providing spiritual sustenance to the other Orders. I like to view what’s happening with Shallan and Kaladin here through that lens instead of a romantic one. It helps them forge a friendship and rely upon each other’s strengths as fellow Knights.
@1 noblehunter: I am inclined to agree with you regarding the similarity between Kaladin’s relationship arc with both Adolin and Shallan. I don’t see any reason why Kal and Shal wouldn’t ship well, but then again, I’m not particularly invested in any possible ship involving Shallan at this point in the story. (I know, I know… I don’t know why, but I’m in no hurry to see her locked into a relationship.) Kaladin started both relationships with understandable, [IMO justifiable], walls up relating to dealings with lighteyes. When he allowed himself to really see the two of them, his opinion of them started to change. Likewise, when Shallan and Adolin got to know a bit more about Kal, their opinions changed and grew more positive. I guess I’m rather protective of one’s right to change their mind because I’ve been known to do it myself. ;-)
@@.-@ Wingracer: Yes!!! I very much agree. I think Kal trusted [individual] lighteyes without their having to earn his trust early on, and learned the hard way there is no recourse against the whims of the lighteyes, even when those whims are unquestionably wrong. I think after living such a relatively privileged [sheltered] life, the reality of how much power the lighteyes truly held over the darkeyes was shocking for him. Now that he’s built those walls up, people want him to rise past all that and give people the benefit of the doubt. Which he has and continues to do, but in his own time, which I can totally respect. I realize those walls being in place cause an awful lot of trouble, but such is life.
@5 Wetlander: I’d have to say that it’s a matter of fact that Wistiow was not alone in being a good lighteyes. After all, we’ve met Shallan, Dalinar, Adolin, Sebarial… But the comment “there’s far less conflict between lighteyes and darkeyes than Kaladin would admit” sort of simultaneously minimizes the problem and maybe shows the complacency that must have been in place by even reasonable, well-meaning lighteyes to allow this system to exist as it did. Can you see maybe how statements like “Things aren’t as bad as all that…I don’t see what they’re complaining about… they’re treated fine as long as they stay in their place… It isn’t me doing it” seem like the sort of thinking that allowed people who knew things weren’t right to overlook those wrongs on a daily basis?
On Shallan it should be worth noting that she never gives even a hint of thanks to Kaladin for saving Adolin’s life and limbs.
It is very annoying of Kaladin to blame her for his arrest just because she is a Lighteyes but she clearly gave no thought to what he did and risked to save her fiancee, she just sees him being rude to Adolin later and acts on that. So you could argue that there is some justification to his accusation of how she sees darkeyes as below her (or rather doesn’t see them at all).
What Kaladin did for Adolin was huge but she does not acknowledge it at all. (I’ll get to her apology, or lack of it in the next chapter.)
I originally I thought that maybe Syl was actually in the midst of reforming that bond with Kaladin actually. The moment before Kaladin falls he’s actually trying to protect someone – Dalinar. He’s doing his job as a bodyguard, so Syl would able to allow for Kaladin to call on Stormlight again but this explanation doesn’t explain why Syl would scream or not be able to be seen or heard by Kaladin after the fall.
Now I’m wondering if it’s the opposite of what I was thinking. Kaladin is infused with power after he’s falling and his thoughts are turned inwards as far as we can hear. He’s talking about how “he won’t die this way” and “how the sky is his”. He’s not thinking about trying to save any of the other falling people or anything like that. While I would like to think that Syl willing gave up Stormlight that makes her I also can’t help but be a bit worried that maybe Kaladin pulled the Stormlight to him like what he did with the sphere in the jail. Then again there is not stating that Stormlight was fighting him like the Stormlight he called to himself in the jail.
I don’t know if this has to do with the Recreance but the Recreance was a severing of the bond between spren and knight. Which is what is happening here and I think that is why they similar effects. I think Kaladin really hurt Syl here with his grab for Stormlight while the bond was weakened but at the same time the Recreance wasn’t the Knights reaching for a power but placing it aside without regards to their oaths.
What it does seem to me is that Kaladin calling on bond when he’s not using in line with the Oaths and Ideals hurts Syl in a similar way that the dead Shardblades are hurt when they are being use to kill indiscriminately (once again probably not in line with the Oaths and Ideals that they should be used for).
@18
I don’t think any of the lighteyes (other thank Dalinar, Adolin and Renarin) really take Kaladin seriously even after he jumped into to help Adolin. I think they just assume that he’s was just a distraction and that Adolin most of the heavy lifting in that fight. From what it sounds like when we here Sadeas talk about how lighteyes look at Adolin’s duel talk about how Adolin took on four Shardbearers and nothing about the darkeyed Bridgman who jumped in.
I’ve asked before, and I still would be curious to know if any of the other lighteyes from other camps even really know that it was Kaladin that jumped into the fight or if they assume it was Moash because he’s the one who now has the Shards. I’m sure the darkeyed soldiers note this but do any of the lighteyes? Or is Kaladin invisible to them?
Shallan also isn’t someone who knows a lot about fight and I don’t think she was watching anyone other than Adolin the field. Though this doesn’t negate the point that you were making at all. Shallan is a bit imperious at times even when she doesn’t realize it. Back in the war camp one of her first mistakes when were the Veil disguise was expecting darkeyes to just move out of her way when she was walking around. I think she probably thinks that Kaladin would have been thanked by Adolin and that’s enough.
Thank you for your great analysis Wetlandernw. After reading the chapter again I got the feeling that Syl chose to sacrifice her physical existence to save Kaladin. Either way they broke the rules and thus broke the bond. That was strike three for them. Luckily though, he still had more levels of knighthood to obtain. If he had already reached the final echelon, and then done what he did, I think that would have been game over for Syladin.
Also, I think Kaladin/Syl saved Shallan as well, due to the nature of her appearance and the fact that they fell right next to each other. If not, Shallan would have looked like a ripe tomato a la Wayne from Bands of Mourning. The other option I can see is that she pulled a mom-lifting-car-to-save-her-child desperation move to transport herself down through Shadesmar. But then, why did she forget that?
I would love to see Kaladin and Shallan together if only so that I could see more Syl and Pattern interaction. We already know Syl has a deep rooted dislike for Pattern’s kind. How would she react to knowing Kaladin loved a Lightweaver?
@19 kei_rin
Mechanics-wise, this is an interesting explanation for what Kaladin and Syl are going through. When we’re talking about the Nahel bond, we usually consider the spren and the proto-Knight to be the only participants. However, it’s useful to think of Ishar as a player too. He’s the one who seems to have setup the system regulating ethics, behavior, and access to Surgebinding.
Ishar, as a Herald, was probably human or a member of a humanoid species at some point in his life. He must have taken the inconsistencies of human nature into account when designing the system. I’m curious as to whether this shared pain is an intended consequence of disharmony between spren and Knight. If the pain is a mechanism to keep the Knights in line, Ishar may have tuned the system too tightly or expected too much of his Knights.
There’s a big difference between the Surgebinder behavior that Nohadon complains about in Dalinar’s vision and Kaladin’s behavior when he deviates from Syl’s definition of honor.
Shallan isn’t guilty of Kaladin’s imprisonment, no. But what Shallan is guilty of, and what many of the well-meaning lighteyes are guilty of, is staying silent. If a darkeyes like Kaladin can’t push against the status quo without retribution – or at least, can only push so far, and only in a way that the lighteyes deem polite and acceptable – and the lighteyes go about maybe being kind to some darkeyes (though rarely, if ever, treating them as equals) but still enjoying all the privileges of their status without truly questioning it, or speaking against the system, then nothing changes. The power in this social system rests with the lighteyes, and therefore it is largely their responsibility to enact change.
Shallan is not a bad person. She is not specifically at fault for the things that have happened to Kaladin. But she does benefit from her place in society – a place she did not earn but was born into by a trick of genetics (which is not to say she hasn’t worked for what she has, but rather that she was grated status at birth that others were not) – and she has taken advantage of that. She has done so largely out of ignorance rather than malice, but that is part of the problem: she doesn’t even realize that by nothing more than the colour of her eyes, she has privileges Kaladin doesn’t. And that’s okay, she’s been conditioned to this attitude by her entire society, but it is something she has to learn.
The system is set up so that the lighteyes can take advantage of darkeyes in all kinds of ways – some relatively innocent, others atrocious – but the point is that the abuse is enabled, and they are not called to task for it. The darkeyes continue to suffer these abuses both small and large, over and over and over. Meanwhile the lighteyes don’t see a problem; they go about their business and think they’re being kind. They genuinely do. And that is why it is the fault of the group as a whole.
Just as there is a difference between understandable and justifiable, there’s a difference between “this large group is at fault for widespread and systematic oppression” and “each and every individual is at fault for the things that happened to me.” I think Kaladin is trying to express the former, but it is misunderstood – or misphrased, or both – as the latter.
On an individual level, the lighteyes are not bad people. But they are a product of their society – a society that tells them at every turn that they are superior, that they are entitled, that it’s okay to treat this other group as beneath them. So yes, as a whole, the lighteyes are responsible. That doesn’t mean everything Kaladin has suffered is the fault of each and every lighteyed individual. It simply means that Kaladin has endured horrors no one should ever have to, for no reason but the colour of his eyes. And now he’s supposed to kiss the (stolen) boots of the ones who deign to treat him as a human being, all the while making it clear that they’re doing him a special favour?
And so begins the chasm arc. I’ve re-read this so many times – it’s like a lovely little short story, really. I particularly enjoy the shift in perspective every time the point of view switches between Shallan and Kaladin. But, despite all I like about this arc I have zero interest in shipping Shallan and Kaladin.
Regarding Syl, I seem to remember some recent WoB with Brandon confirmed that she desperately forced what she could through the bond, which was enough for Kaladin to survive, but doing so pretty much killed her. I’ve not seen anyone else quote it though so maybe I’m miss-remembering. I’ll look for it later if I get time.
In this arc, Shallan is more animated than usual, which some people find annoying. I’ve generally put this down to Shallan’s various coping mechanisms being over-stimulated. She’s out in the middle of nowhere with no hope of rescue coming and an impending Highstorm with nothing but a chasmfiend and a big angry soldier for company. I’m not a girl but I’m pretty sure Shallan would find Kaladin intimidating – he’s much bigger than her, is occasionally hostile and though she has various powers if he attacked her while she’s sleeping there might not be much she could do, except to risk Soulcasting. We readers know he almost certainly wouldn’t do that but Shallan herself would not.
Oh Kaladin.
This section is all him being kind of a jerk, but then, considering what just happened pretty much anyone would be cranky.
I think it’s important to note that, while he is wrong, part of that is because he’s not used to arguing: Kaladin is punching way above his weight list when it comes to making the kinds of arguments he makes with Shallan. So even when he makes accurate points, Shallan can squash them pretty well because she’s much more schooled in debate. Combining that with the fact Kaladin is emotionally compromised multiple times over, he just keeps harping on the wrong things (iirc next chapter he even comments that he can tell something is off about him, but he can’t properly address it because there’s just no time and survival takes priority).
As to what was going on with that last Stormlight, I like it being something Syl does – it always feels like so much of the Nahel bond doesn’t require much active input from her (of course the most important part was her picking out Kaladin but that was just the beginning). It depends on how much of Kaladin’s thoughts to himself were just him desperately wanting to survive and how much might have been him actually doing something (after reading Secret History it feels like there’s maybe a tiny amount of wiggle room if you have a strong enough will and demand something).
Edit: @24 – oh I think that’s part of what’s happening, and why Shallan and Kaladin are so vicious to one another as well. Their defense mechanisms are basically opposite in nature (at least in broad strokes imo) so relying on them it enhances how much they get on each others’ nerves.
See, this is why I like the reread. I always thought the Stormfather was speaking to Kaladin when he says “WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?” but Syl makes much more sense. He’s been expecting Kaladin to kill Syl all along, so he wouldn’t be surprised. Also, it makes me even more fond of Syl. If she chose to save his life instead of letting him die and escaping, diminished but alive, that shows she has a staggering amount of faith in him.
I’m not much of a shipper–I only tend to really be against relationships that don’t work or come out of nowhere and take over the story–so I’m pretty neutral on the subject of who Shallan ends up with. I do think that it would be odd for Shallan and Kaladin to go through this whole ordeal–physical danger, emotional openness, close physical proximity to an attractive member of the opposite sex–and not be a bit attracted to each other; however, even in fiction, attraction and bonding don’t necessarily mean a long-term romantic relationship is in the works. I’m sure that whatever Brandon decides will be for the sake of the story, and he’s a really good storyteller, so I’m up for whatever. Which is a really long-winded way of saying “Meh.” But I would like to know more about Tarah and the others Kaladin briefly recollects, like the soldier who wanted to become an ardent. (I may be mistaken, but I think that was Hav, and he’s still working for Amaram.) And did he ever get revenge on the squadleader who let Tien die? A whole book of flashbacks and I still have questions!
@@@@@ 25: You made me remember that one of the reasons Kaladin decided to go to school instead of become a soldier was because he wanted to know how to effectively argue with lighteyes. He knows he’s right, he just doesn’t know how to say it! (I’m not saying that he actually is right all the time, but his arguments could use some refinement.)
Thank you emuriya, you said it a thousand times better than I could.
@11, you are not alone. I’m on that ship HARD. The only problem is that I see bad things happening between Kaladin and Adolin to make that happen and I don’t want to see that.
emuriya @23
Huh? Where did that come from? Aside from Sadeas who is a bastard and uses the Bridge crew as bait, I don’t see a systematic abuse of darkeyes by lighteyes. Remember, there are darkeyes in Sadeas army too. And he those citizen soldiers are getting paid like the rest of the army. To Sadeas, the bridge crews are not people. They are just bait.
The other High Princes we know of and had seen how they treat their people are Dalinar and Serbarial. Both are decent to their staff and their people.
So, you have Roshone who was mean to Moash grandparents and Wisteow who was basically out for blood sent Tien to war, and Amaram who out of greed stole Kaladin’s shards.
I don’t see any SYSTEMATIC abuse here. There is NO LARGE SCALE slavery wherein people are born slaves. And please remember , the darkeyes/lighteyes thing is not the whole of Roshar but just with the Alethi and those who follow Vornism.
If you can give me examples of SYSTEMATIC and WORLDWIDE abuse of lighteyes to the darkeyes then perhaps I will agree that the darkeyes are oppressed.
From what I have seen, the Alethi is very fluid in social ranking. you can BUY RANK! And if you are dark eyes, if you win a Shard, you automatically become Fourth Dahn!!! So, there are chances. It is NOT a total shut out.
Oh yes, some are more privileged than others. But it is always about MONEY. If Lirin did not need to steal those diamond marks so that he can send Kaladin to medical school, then he and Wisteow would have not bumped heads. So, the start of Kaladin’s problem was money, not because he is dark eyes.
One thing that I’m not sure has been brought up before or not…Kaladin is depressed, not from his treatment or his life, though I am sure those haven’t helped. When reading the TWOK I noticed that Kaladin seems to have been suffering from some sort of depression basically since he hit puberty. For someone who is clinically depressed they will often find reasons to blame the way that they feel.
Just my opinion.
A bit of WoB about Kaladin getting the Stormlight:
I’ll respond later to the piles of other stuff.
sheesania @30 – Thanks for the quote! Okay, so it really was Syl pushing Stormlight through the bond. Which really IS self-sacrificial of her, because it almost destroyed her; if she had just let him fall and die, she’d have been affected, but not so much (per another WoB). Perhaps I really was on the right track with the Stormfather thing – he thought Syl should have let Kaladin die, and she would have essentially been free to return wholly to the Cognitive realm. So… is she sort of trapped between Realms for a while? Not fully returned to Cognitive, but not able to manifest as herself in the Physical either? That seems closer to a reason for the dead-blade-scream effect, maybe…
@28 sheiglagh
The Vorin social system is caste-based with a focus on a (mostly) immutable physical trait. Lighteyes as a group enjoy greater status by virtue of their eye color, have access to higher and more prestigious military ranks, and have their inherent superiority enshrined in religious doctrine. Lighteyes are assumed to be more capable of assuming responsibility and leadership.
That’s a lot to overcome if you’re a darkeyed person in Vorin society, even if you come from a high nahn and relative wealth. Setting up a society this way is almost a guarantee of abuse, even if the leaders of that society are not universally bad people.
Members of the lowest nahns are the most vulnerable, because the lack legal protections like the right of travel and the right of inquest to protect themselves from abuse by their overlords. It’s likely that they lack wealth and provide unskilled labor.
The ability to buy rank can help people advance, but you can only buy your way up so far. The people who most need to escape the lower nahns are also the least likely to have the resources to do so. When Kaladin’s father was telling him about their family’s climb to the second nahn, it sounded like an effort spanning generations.
Winning shards can change a person’s eyes, but nobody recalls it happening in living memory and even Kaladin is only able to name 3 or 4 people who are said to have achieved it.
@@@@@ 23, emuriya
That is an excellent description of systemic privilege. You are completely right that it is the moral responsibility of those with privilege to dismantle the system that enables their lives at the expense of others.
@@@@@ sheiglagh, 28
I’m a bit confused why you don’t see systemic abuse. Dark-eyed people are not permitted to serve certain roles, rule themselves, and depending on their rank freely travel. They are expected to defer and serve light eyes. Their labor and resources are not entirely their own. Exceptions — like Kaladin becoming an officer (which people comment on a lot) — do not disappear systemic privilege and abuse.
Becoming light-eyed by possessing a Shard is so rare that it is legendary. And given how few Shards there are and how rarely that happens, it’s not really an option for most people. Equal concern and respect should not depend on the ownership of magic swords.
@@@@@ 32, Halien:
Exactly.
@@@@@ 30
Thank you for finding that WoB. It makes me feel better knowing that it was Syl giving Kaladin Stormlight as opposed to Kaladin taking the Stormlight.
Kaladin and Shallan seem to be unconscious for a while after the fall and probably healed during that time (maybe Kaladin didn’t need as much healing because of his Windrunner abilities). Pattern doesn’t understand about humans “breaking” and “unbreaking”, that is why he cannot explain what happened.
I am torn…sort of…about the whole Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin situation. On the one hand, I love Adolin and Shallan together; they have a lovely sweet relationship that has a lot of potential. If this were real life and I were offering Shallan advice, I’d tell her to hold on to Adolin and forget the brooding malodorous bridgeman. But this isn’t real life; this is a story. More than that, this is a story written by Brandon Sanderson, who has a track record of writing strong, healthy romances that end happily. I feel like Sanderson could go either way – there’s enough potential that he could write a Shallan/Kaladin romance if he wanted to, and of course he could also write Shallan/Adolin. So given that he could write either Shallan/Kaladin or Shallan/Adolin, and that either way there’s a high chance of it ending happily for both parties – I think it would be more interesting to watch Shallan and Kaladin’s journey to a strong romantic relationship, and to watch how that relationship plays out, than it would be to see how Shallan and Adolin get there and what it would look like for them.
There is so much potential for character development in a Shallan/Kaladin match – both through conflict :) and also through all the deep things they share. Shallan and Kaladin are aware of some of each others’ deepest struggles; they would force each other to confront them and deal with them in a way that I think would make for great character development. The whole chasm sequence is a good example of Shallan making Kaladin confront some of those thought patterns he was stuck in: hating lighteyes, thinking as if nobody else could top the misery of his life, assuming there is no way out of his depression. And Kaladin pushes back, too; he doesn’t have nearly so big an effect on Shallan, but she’s still struck by his strength and drive. But note that they only listen to and impact each other like this after they realize their shared experience of pain and brokenness. I think the combination of differences (social status, personality, response to trauma, &c) and similarities (Radianthood, brokenness, &c) between Kaladin and Shallan creates a potent mixture of conflict and connection that would be very powerful for character development. We see just that happening in the chasm scenes.
I guess if you want to argue for a pairing, you could go one of two routes: 1) you could argue on the basis that it would be best for the characters; or 2) you could argue on the basis it would be best for the readers, so to speak, in that it would make for a more interesting story. I think I have a medicore case for #1 at this point – Shallan/Kaladin could definitely work, especially with Brandon Sanderson’s hand guiding them, but right now I think Shallan/Adolin is better in that department. For #2, though, I think Kaladin trumps Adolin even though a Shallan/Adolin relationship would still be very enjoyable. And that is precisely because a Shallan/Kaladin relationship would have more conflict, more obstacles, more differences and baggage to overcome – and that makes for better character development, a better story and a very satisfying result.
But I say I’m only “sort of” torn because even if my mind can’t firmly decide, my heart (to put it dramatically) is all for Shallan/Kaladin. I never ship except in Sanderson books, and even then, I rarely have strong feelings. But this just got me somehow. Maybe because this is the first time I’ve equally liked both people involved in one of his romances. At any rate, I’ve put a frankly ridiculous amount of thought into the whole Kaladin/Shallan/Adolin deal in an attempt to somehow be rational about it. So I’ve got a lot of analyses and ideas and opinions about the whole deal ready to spring on anybody. This is only the tip of the iceberg! :)
I am tempted to write long responses to each comment that has been posted on this subject, but I really should let it be for now. Just two things:
@the original post: Oof. Hard words. I don’t generally like the Slap-Slap-Kiss trope; it’s probably my least favorite aspect of how Sanderson tends to write romances. But considering it further, there are two main reasons I don’t like it: 1) It portrays conflict as positive, romantic, desirable. That’s not true. Conflict resolution is what’s positive, romantic, and desirable. And I don’t just mean cessation of conflict, deciding to kiss instead of slap; I mean resolution. We do see that to some extent in the chasm scenes, before there’s real attraction between them. 2) It’s difficult for an author to make it believable that two characters who’d been fighting would start to genuinely love each other and, even more, function well together. YMMV, but I think Sanderson did a good job of transitioning from “I hate you” to “We are making bad puns and defeating chasmfiends together”. We can see why Kaladin and Shallan aggravated each other, and why they didn’t anymore. It’s not coming out of nowhere. So yeah, YMMV, but judging from what we’ve seen so far I think Sanderson could pull it off.
@27 wingracer: I also definitely don’t want to see major problems between Kaladin and Adolin over Shallan. They finally start to become friends, and then a girl gets between them? Ugh. I would like to see all three of them wind up in strong healthy relationships with each other, whether romantic or not. I would rather see Shallan/Adolin happen if it meant the three of them could remain close.
First: Kaladin has been out of a two week long prison & depression spell for 4 days. For those that suffer depression – it can take longer than 4 days of sunshine to “get over” a down swing like that.
He’s not been talking to his best buddy Syl much. She’s able to shake him out of his moods often, not now, his actions have cost her intelligence – literally. He’s still very much depressed and grumpy. When this way he lashes out. Especially since he is not allowed to directly confront Elhokar who is guilty of unfair treatment.
@@@@@ 30: Adding my thanks! I figured it was the Storm Father talking, but I didn’t realize it was him yelling at Syl. I want to hug her.
Re: Darkeyes winning shards – A pipedream that has not been achieved in living memory. Now part of mythology, until Kaladin. Who then gives it away – twice.
An earthly comparisons would be traveling to the deepest part of the ocean, the Marianas Trench.
Three people in the world have actually taken the journey down. The first two in 1960s. But the odds of this becoming a common achievement is very remote. Random person on earth has a better chance of becoming president of their country, than of traveling to the depths of the Marianas Trench.
RE: Darkeyes & system abuse
I agree with Halien. Sorry, any system that is based on keeping a group of people with a set of physical characteristics as the “lower class” will create an abusive system. Much like the “separate but equal” systems of the USA were rampant with abuse and were not equal.
Being treated with kindness by the overlords, is not the same as being treated as an equal to the overlords.
Doesn’t matter if 95% of the Lighteyes are good overlords. Being denied equal treatment and opportunity, leads to oppression.
At least in Mistborn, the skaa could pretend to be nobles. Here, darkeyes is the first strike against you in life.
Shipping Wars:
I see more overall support for Shallan & Kaladin in other forums. I’m happy that on this re-read the support is more for Shallan & Adolin.
One of the main reasons is their sprens. Shallan & Kaladin both have a magical best friend that is with them almost all the time. The magical best friends – are not going to like each other. Their sprenly nature are too opposite. A pairing of the people would cause a clashing of the sprens, which would cause problems in the relationship. This would be much worse than not liking your in-laws. Your in-laws are not a second conscious talking to you every hour of the day.
Does Kaladin need someone who can look on the bright side, like Shallan can? Yes. He needs dragged out of funks often. Syl can only do part of that. Syl needs someone she can like to help her with that.
Shallan, who pretends and creates happiness in others, deserves someone who is genuinely happy. Adolin can spread his mantel of “not depressed, just a happy good guy” around her like a warm hug. What a breath of fresh air! She doesn’t have to work to act happy around him. She can just “be” happy. Unlike around her brothers. She is their rock and bringer of joy. Adolin can be hers.
Just to chime in with some more agreement… ;)
Realistically, two people like Kaladin and Shallan who each have Problems are not a good match. More often than not, a romance between two people with issues like theirs are more likely to drag each other down than help each other up. A good solid friendship can be of immense help between two such people – just not a romance.
This is my first time commenting so be kind!
1. I love all the thoughts on everything discussed in the chapter and I don’t really have much to add.
2. As far as the shipping wars are concerned I don’t think either will work out. I do like the Adolin/Shallan ship better but I don’t really see it happening. The problem comes with what Adolin does at the end of the book and what that could potentially do to him. We just don’t know how that is going to affect him or how Shallan coming out for what she is will affect that relationship.
Not to kill the shipping discussion but that is just what I see.
Also I am all for Kaladin and Shallan becoming besties for life because having an opposite gender BFF is the best!
Re: the Recreance and what happens between Kaladin and Syl here: I never got the sense that this scene was especially relevant to the Recreance. I suppose it has to do with the final breaking of a bond, but Kaladin was not purposefully severing it like the Radiants in Dalinar’s vision appeared to be. Kaladin was on the way to breaking it, but it was Syl who finally did the deed by forcing the Stormlight through. So…maybe it’s a clue that the Radiants’ spren could have participated in the Recreance and the breaking of their bonds too? But why help to turn yourself into a screaming corpse?
Re: Stormlight healing – Breathing Stormlight seems to give you other physical abilities, like increased energy and ability to hold your breath. So I wouldn’t be surprised if it also bestowed toughness, endurance, and other things that could make it easier for you to fall a long way. Then you’d hopefully only have minor injuries to heal with Stormlight after landing.
@6 Halien: Very interesting parallel between Kaladin and the Stormfather. That hadn’t occurred to me before, so thanks for pointing it out.
@24 ChrisRijk: We don’t actually see Shallan be worried about being trapped with a hostile soldier, so I doubt she felt that way. She did know that Dalinar trusted him and that Kaladin had helped save Adolin, so I’d be surprised to see her really mistrust him. That being said, it did seem odd to me that someone as sheltered as Shallan didn’t appear to feel strange at all at being alone with a man in the middle of nowhere. I’ve grown up in a similarly conservative society where this isn’t really considered appropriate, and I’ll feel a bit odd and uncomfortable being alone with a man even when I completely trust him and it’s appropriate in the current context. Just a gut reaction programmed by my surrounding culture that I don’t see in Shallan despite her similar culture.
Re: Kaladin’s criticisms of lighteyes – I think a lot of what Kaladin is trying to say here is true. The abuses of a few lighteyes are possible partly because the other lighteyes are staying silent and continuing to support a system that allows for them. I don’t think we’ve seen truly pervasive, systematic and consistently cruel abuse of darkeyes (though we’ve seen several individual cases), and there are opportunities for darkeyes to rise in social class if they work very hard. I wouldn’t entirely condemn Shallan and co for going along with their society. But the overall system is still wrong in how it arbitrarily takes away some people’s rights in favor of others, and calls this The Way Things Should Be; it’s worthy of reform.
That being said, I think many of Kaladin’s motives for believing all this are off. He’s been genuinely hurt by lighteyes abusing the system, and he wants to see justice done and people he cares about protected, but he also just wants somebody to blame. He doesn’t want to take full responsibility for dealing with his problems. “Did they expect him to change?” (ch 71) Alas, Kaladin, your life would be much simpler if you were in the hands of a lesser author who’d just make all lighteyes purely bad. But you’re stuck with someone who believes in nuance and human goodness. You’re going to have to be a good protagonist and actively try to solve your problems.
At any rate, I think these are good questions for Kaladin, Shallan, and we the readers to consider, because they are likely to be significant as the whole world has to mobilize to fight the Desolation. And as the new Radiants reveal things about the origin of the dichotomy.
By the way, I absolutely agree with Alice’s statement: “The problem, IMO, is not lighteyes and darkeyes, or a social system that is very hierarchical in nature – the problem is human nature and uncontrolled selfishness.” The root issue is human nature, and thus that the lighteyes/darkeyes system doesn’t do a good job of minimizing human nature’s capacity for abusing others.
Sheesania @37: Malodorous? I don’t think you really meant that, did you?
@42 I was quoting Shallan in the next chapter. “You see, great art is a matter of contrast. Some lights and some darks. The happy, smiling, radiant lady and the dark, brooding, malodorous bridgeman.”
@41 “We don’t actually see Shallan be worried about being trapped with a hostile soldier, so I doubt she felt that way.”
This is Shallan we’re talking about :D
In any properly written story all characters should be unreliable narrators to varying degrees. Shallan is the least reliable of the major characters. At this place in the story, Kaladin’s point of view isn’t particularly reliable either, though mostly when it comes to Lighteyes – he automatically sees Lighteyes in a negative light. I would say that the biggest result from the chasms arc is that Kaladin is forced to confront this aspect of himself and finally starts to see Lighteyes as people. I would also say that he too readily sees Darkeyes as “victims” and tends to overlook things because of this – though this is less obvious and less pervasive.
In contrast, Shallan sees pretty much everything in a more positive light. If we never saw things from her perspective and never saw her darker side she’d probably come across as someone who sees the world with rose-tinted glasses, as it were. It’s not that she doesn’t see though – but that she sees things more abstractly and can simply imagine more positive alternatives. This is largely a coping mechanism though I also think that her artistic way of thinking has made it far stronger and more advanced.
btw, I don’t mean that she isn’t able to think negative thoughts at all or that she has unlimited capacity for positive thinking. It’s more like she unconsciously avoids such things, particularly over time – the more she gets to understand something or someone the more she can do it. A simple example is the impending Highstorm during her balcony date with Adolin. She definitely does this with her brothers – she is fully aware of their negative aspects but imagines a better future and works to make it happen instead. At the end of chapter 40 she thinks to herself “For the first time in quite a long while, Shallan found herself not fighting for her survival or worrying about being murdered by one of her traveling companions” – yet we don’t actually she her worrying about that.
It’s for these sorts of reasons that Tyn takes Shallan far too lightly. Pretty much everyone does too, even Jasnah. Even after Shallan killed their father, Balat still thinks of her as “Shy, quiet, delicate”. She might have a “blossoms and cake” aura most of the time but she’s far more complicated than that.
I’d say the origins of this are mostly in chapter 19 – Helaran suggests she draw “safe things”, to not “dwell on what happened” and also: “Please do some drawings for me while I’m gone. Of fanciful things. Of brighter days”. Young Shallan is too traumatised to deal with the situation by herself, takes his advice and runs with it.
Going back to this chapter. I’d say that she is nervous with being alone Kaladin but has enough distractions and bigger worries and not enough free time that we don’t directly see it. This is just my interpretation though and we’d need a Word of Brandon to settle things. Btw, we do have a WoB that Shallan was actually quite stressed during the last part of the book – reading between the lines you can see it but it’s not particularly obvious.
Wet@39
Exactly that. Thank you. Romantically bonding over shared hard events are one thing. Blind attraction surrounding past, non shared hardships is a great way to end a relationship/marriage in 7 years or less. Once the trauma dissipates there is very little left to thebattraction.
Sheesania @41:
Shallan may not see Kaladin as a danger, since I imagine that any attacks by dark-eyed men on light-eyed women are savagely punished in Vorin culture, so that only the most desperate outlaws would be seen as that kind of risk. Kaladin is a trusted bodyguard of the Kholins, so Shallan would consider him safe despite his moodiness. This reminds me of how British women would fearlessly travel around certain parts of the British Empire in the early 20-ieth century and be largely quite safe, where indigenious women certainly would have been at risk/needed to be very wary.
Not that I am envisioning that permissive attitudes are prevailing among the darkeyes either, since women have a relatively high status in that society and neither religion nor tradition provide any excuses for such crimes being tolerated or going unpunished.
And of course, Shallan also has a shardblade and due to her recent experience with Tyn, knows herself to be quite capable of employing it in self-defense, so she doesn’t really need to worry about being assaulted anyway.
As to Shalladin – everything that you bring up as in favor has been done so many times that it has become a cliche. And while it is not impossible to write a trope well, it is certainly very difficult. So personally, nope. IMHO, YMMV.
Also what ChrisRijk @43 says, except that I genuinely think that she is not worried about Kaladin, because as a result of the above, she really has no reason to worry. Thankfully. I wouldn’t want every female character in SF/fantasy to have to deal with it, even though it sadly remains very much a concern iRL.
@46 Kaladin and Shallan and everyone else who dropped from the bridge should be dead, normally. If either of them did decide to kill the other they would have a perfect alibi. Shallan has also seen what happened to Jasnah – being attacked in her sleep would be a very valid worry.
I don’t particularly want to make too big a deal about this though. Whatever she really feels in her conscious/subconscious she is certainly more obviously worried about getting back before the Highstorm arrives.
Sheesania @43: I see. But that reinforces some of the comments above relating to the privilege enjoyed by light-eyed people and their sense of superiority over the dark-eyed lower classes, doesn’t it? So, Kaladin. to her, is a “dark, brooding stinky bridgeman”, is he? Some people on here wonder why Kaladin took serious offense early on when Adolin kept referring to him dismissively as “bridgeman” and his continued lashing out against all lighteyes; here he is getting the same condescending attitude from Shallan!
@48 Alisonwonderland
Kaladin took offense at being called “bridge boy” not bridge man.” Kaladin at 19 is only a few years younger than Adolin, but he considers (incorrectly) to be more mature than the “spoiled and pampered” Adolin.
Adolin may have been in the wrong to use the insulting term at first, but it was actually the “boy” part rather than the bridge part that I think offended him the most.
To many: Re Darkeyes and Lighteyes – I guess I never saw it that way. It’s probably because I have never seen a truly classless society. Ask the Chinese who has been “communist” for so long but until now, majority of the Chinese feels oppressed when according to the Communist manifesto, everyone is equal. And everyone in China comes from the same race. There might be regional differences, not racial.
What I see is not Darkeyes or Lighteyes. What I see is that there are good humans and bad humans. And it does not matter what your eye color is in the case of Roshar.
Expanding our range of examples, we can actually look at the animal kingdom and there is still the hierarchy. Thanks to Disney (whether it is good or bad), children now understands that there is even that in the animal kingdom. (Hello Lion King). Or the bees. Everyone serves the Queen Bee.
Humans are supposed to be the intelligent race. But are we really? Only thing I can see is that we have an opposable thumb. That separated us from the rest of the animal kingdom. Are we better than them? Perhaps. Just remember, humans are on top of the food chain. Are we not committing atrocities against the cows, the pigs and the chicken, even the fish because we eat them? The vegans will say yes we are. Stella McCartney believes so.
Hence, to me, unless the Lighteyes breeds the Darkeyes to be their slaves and/or there are people in Alethkar who are born slaves and has no way to get out of that, the Lighteyes / Darkeyes social ranking in Alethkar is just the way the birds and the bees are.
When I said birds, yes there is hierarchy there too. When they are migrating, the strongest birds are on the spearhead. The young and the not so strong ones are in the middle so that they get the least wind resistance.
Yay!!! Is that hierarchy at its best? Or do you call it something else. Sorry to be snarky. The Lighteyes / Darkeyes debacle is just getting old for me.
OTHER TOPIC – Shallan not scared of Kaladin – Shallan will not be scared. She had already accepted that Pattern is a shardblade. She knows she can kill Kaladin if she needs to. Remember that Shallan does not know that Kaladin is a KR. To Shallan, Kaladin is just another human.
@@@@@ Sheilagh
The lighteyes-darkeyes debate might be getting old for you, but we are not talking about it because we are such grumblers and party-poopers, who need to see oppression everywhere, especially in our fictional societies.
We are talking about it, because Brandon Sanderson put the subject right there, into nearly all of the Kaladin chapters. The novel itself points to the subject again and again – are we supposed to ignore that?
Actually China is a very multiethnic country. The han chinese are just the biggest group. And while China might officially be communist the party functionaries are actually very status conscious.
even reading Brandon’s quote (thank you for that sheesania), I don’t really get why happend what happend between Syl and Kaladin.
The previous chapter showed that the bond was weakening, because of his confliccting vows or his lack of honor, but (despite only thinking about himself during the fall, as kei-rin @19 pointed out) he doesn’t do or think something that “deserves” an ultimate break of the bond.
BWS says in the quote that it was because Syl destroyed her helping him, but I don’t see a reason for that either. In the previous chapter Kaladin had touble breathing in the stormlight, but with Syl near him the could do it. In the fall likewise he isn’t able to access the stormlight, but Syl is obviously with him, so why the strain?
Re-considering I don’t think the previous chapter showed if Kaladin could still use the stormlight, he was content to let it cruise in his veins. Hm. I’m still not totally satisfied, it still feels like “plot-convenience”,
@53 travyl
Ok let me try to explain it another way. Think of Stormlight as Saidin and Kaladin’s bond with Syl as his strength in the OP (except that he can actually lose strength level as well as gain it), while his bond was strong and he was acting according to his oaths, his pipe was getting bigger and allowed for huge amounts of Stomrlight to be easily and efficiently used by his body.
While it was weakening his bond with Syl–his pipe for stormlight–got smaller. He had more trouble pulling it in, and seemed to only be able to get small amounts.
When he fell, Syl forced a huge amount of Stormlight through that pipe causing it to burst just like an Aes Sedi or Asha’man who drew in too much of the OP would have. The strain “burned her out” for lack of a better term.
Liar @51 – true, it is always mentioned when it is a Kaladin chapter. What I find repeatitive is that there are those who just see the Alethi as very bad because of their social classes. That all Lighteyes are so bad, that they just oppress the Darkeyes.
This is a work of fiction! And yes Brandon put it there as part of the story. But focusing on it as the only characteristic of the Alethi is as bad as ISIS believing that the West is so bad.
There are so many shades of grey. In fact to some there are 50 (pun intended). To put the Alethi as blackhearted when there is a whole spectrum between black and white is shortsighted and missing the epic quality of Stormligjht Archive.
just my opinion
Re: Shipping Wars: Ah well. Perhaps I haven’t read enough of the right kinds of books to see the clichés and misrepresentations of reality I’m walking into. I guess my central hypotheses leading to my conclusion are that 1) Sanderson could effectively write either Shallan/Adolin or Shallan/Kaladin, and 2) Shallan/Kaladin would be more interesting storywise. If you disagree with those, as I see many of you doing because of concerns about realism or clichés, I can see why you’d disagree with the conclusion! Good to hear your thoughts. :) Ultimately, I’m excited about the potential in these three very well-drawn characters and their similarly well-drawn relationships, and I’m eager to see Sanderson use them well. I might have various opinions on what I think would be the best use of them, but in the end I trust Sanderson to make a good decision and write a good story.
Oh, and I’m glad that quote could be helpful to so many of you. I just spent five minutes searching “syl” on Theoryland and seeing what I came up with…
wcarter @54
Nice analogy there.
@56 Sheesania
It’s been done and done to death through a number of genres over the years. Literally Falling in Love, Belligerent Sexual Tension, Slap, Slap Kiss and other tropes are all based on idea that a guy and girl that hate each other then go through a dangerous situation together must fall in love. But not only is it over used, it’s statistically B.S.
Relationships that get their start from traumatic experiences have happened in real life. But and it almost never works out long-term.
When you’re put into an exciting and/or dangerous situation, your brain is flooded with adrenaline and other endorphines. It’s called the ‘Fight or Flight Response.’ If you’re with someone when it happens, your mind will sometimes interpret that hormone cocktail as the same one it gets when you fall in love. In other words, it mistakes danger for attraction.
The thing is, once that exciting and/or dangerous situation is over, those hormones go away. Once that happens, one or both parties will eventually figure out that they don’t actually have anything common except “that one time with the bank robbery.” Then comes the break up.
@54 wcarter:
ok, that is a viable explanation, thanks.
I just wish, it had becaume more obvious in the text itself.
Caught up on the comments again, yay!
First, kudos @wcarter for that great analogy – I’d be a sucker for a WoT one anyways but you broke it down pretty well.
Lighteyes/Darkeyes: I always feel bad for Kaladin in these arguments, mostly because regardless of how right/wrong you consider his stance, it’s a rather moot point – the upcoming Desolation is going to bring a lot of social upheaval with it regardless. But only Dalinar really has an inkling of that, and he is preoccupied with bigger matters.
Shipping Wars: For the ships themselves I can’t really add more to the conversation – I feel like sheesania in her comment @56 kind of captures the divide going on between the two major ships in the quasi-triangle. But @38Braid_Tug brought up the spren involved, which made me wonder. Now an obvious problem with one ship is that their spren are opposed (which personally I don’t think would need to be an issue – but let’s not digress). But here’s an interesting question: how fair is it for only one partner in a relationship to have a spren? Because while you can simplify them to magical best friend, the Nahel bond really does go deeper than that. But since spren are still Cognitive in nature is that a big enough difference that they “shouldn’t count?” And this goes for the inverse as well, for how spren should treat their partner’s SO. Should Pattern get all buddy-buddy with Adolin? He talked to him at the end, but that was for a self-serving purpose…but does he need to really interact with him beyond that? What do people think?
Personally, pondering this made me realize part of why I haven’t really jumped on a ship and am waiting on book 3 – I care more about the relationships between the spren and their humans currently and I have no idea to what degree other relationships might impact that.
@50 sheighlagh
The “I don’t see darkeyes or lighteyes” line is very familiar. Unfortunately, Alethi society and Alethi law do see darkeyes or lighteyes, and they treat them very differently. Some people receive special legal privileges and powers based on their eye color and their parents, while others have fewer legal rights and less power based on their eye color and their parents. Even “good” lighteyes who accept that system unthinkingly are guilty of upholding it, because their privileges and power are more important to them than the rights and needs of their social inferiors. They can insist that any abuses come from a few bad apples, while ignoring the system that makes it possible for lighteyes to abuse darkeyes with impunity. After all, if they did something to change the system, what would happen to their own wealth and position?
The debate about equal rights and liberty often “gets old” for people who have a privileged position within society, and who don’t have to worry about being imprisoned, drafted, or enslaved at the whim of their social superiors. Strangely enough, the people who live with the constant knowledge of their own powerlessness and degradation don’t have the privilege of not thinking about it, no matter how tired they are. It would be nice if eye color actually didn’t matter on Roshar, but until that happy time, people like Kaladin will have to keep pointing out the injustice and insanity of their social system and religion.
I believe that this urge on the part of some of us to decide on romantic pairings can become an obstacle to enjoying the author’s development of the story. I would second sheesania and advise hanging loose on the matter. I don’t think that Alice has any more insight into this issue than the rest of us – other than by virtue of being a mature, intelligent woman. However, such judgments are subjective and only well-regarded professional marriage counselors have much of a claim to objective insights in this matter. Alice presumably had an advance copy of the Cosmere book which appears to have precipitated her comments about Hoid. I don’t believe that she has a corresponding advance copy of preliminary drafts of the new book.
My own assessment, for whatever it’s worth, is that Sanderson has already signaled a strong attraction between Kaladin and Shallan. In her case, that attraction is currently suppressed in favor of her romantic attraction to Adolin. So, it remains to be seen how this trio will work out their relationships. I should also note that the initial verbal hostility that Shallan and Kaladin exhibited may have been a conscious attempt to override a subconscious attraction. Why else would Shallan have tempered a compliment on Kaladin’s intelligence with an insult on his appearance, “You’re smatter than you look”. Early in the chasm she refers to him as “malodorous”, as if his opportunities to bathe were comparable to hers. Later Kaladin reflects on his apparent need to respond in kind to Shallan’s taunts when he has not done so for any other Lighteye since boyhood and she appears to have mastered verbal jousting and witty put-downs. In any case, that overt hostility has been replaced by a mutual understanding and fascination. We’ll have to see where Brandon takes it.
@60 FenrirMoridin: It would indeed add an odd dynamic to a close romantic relationship to have almost constantly present magical companions in the mix. I’m not sure, though, that it would be unfair exactly for only one partner to have a spren. I think it’s more like the non-Radiant partner would be particularly unsure of how to deal with the situation, since they don’t know what it’s like to have a Nahel bond.
I don’t know how the relationships might work out. On the one hand, spren don’t seem to form relationships with humans aside from those they’re bonded to; none of the Surgebinding-spren we’ve seen have. You could argue that this is because most of them are keeping their natures secret, but then much of Bridge 4 knows about Syl and she hasn’t become real friends with any of them. And yet on the other hand, wouldn’t you want to get to know your SO’s close friend and magical partner who probably knows them better than yourself? It’s an interesting question, and a good point that any romantic relationships may have a large impact on the existing spren-Radiant relationships.
ETA: @58 wcarter, whoops, didn’t see your comment until now. I’ll respond later.
@63 sheesania
It’s not your fault you didn’t see it. The comment didn’t actually appear until long after I posted it. Whenever you put multiple hyperlinks in a comment, it’s automatically blocked until it can be reviewed by an administrator before going live.
So it had a placeholder spot at 58 but wasn’t actually visible until sometime this morning. And now it seems to be gone again. I just love how the new Tor.com works these days<—::WARNING sarcasm quota exceeded for 2016 WARNING::
@63: Good point, unfair might not have been the best word for it. Maybe asymmetrical? Not that relationships always need to be symmetrical to be happy, but I feel like the element of the spren is an added variable that is oft ignored when it comes to the shipping (well…except for those people who specifically ship the spren, but I’m not sure how much of that is seriously intended, and I’ve never seen much regardless).
@64: The more you know! :O I’ve never had to hyperlink a bunch but that’s good to know for later.
Shipping Wars: One thing I forgot to add – I trust Sanderson to be able to resolve the ships in a satisfactory manner, regardless of who Shallan settles down with if she does at all. I feel like one of the almost-cruel aspects of Words of Radiance is how there’s the possibility of a love triangle (or at least that’s perceived), but it’s left open-ended. It reminds me of Well of Ascension and how a lot of people feared the same there…but that issue was concluded within that book, so there wasn’t the huge source of speculation to power it. Regardless of how you felt you knew the conclusion by the time that book was finished.
And knowing Sanderson there could even be deliberate parallels, as he likes to experiment with what he’s done before and changing it to be different in another book.
@66 dwcole
What are you talking about? First you said you didn’t read the comments. Then you immediately attacked every single one of is for what you assumed we…wrote in the comments? Why?
If you have something to say about the chapter that’s fine. If you want to discuss something that’s welcome– even if you disagree with other people.
There are as many different views on society here as there are rereaders and while we may disagree with each other, we don’t attack one another’s character.
dwcole@66: Your comment has been unpublished. If you want to engage in the discussion please do so in a civil manner, without attacking and demeaning other commenters, and keep in mind that the discussion should relate to Words of Radiance and the chapter at hand–this site is not an appropriate platform for political soapbox speeches.
@58 wcarter: I see a lot more going on here with Kaladin and Shallan than “they hate each other, they go through something dangerous, they fall in love”. All the hormones and whatnot that you mentioned are probably playing a role – they even say in ch 74 that they’re telling each other about their pasts partly to distract themselves from the highstorm. But what happens between them in the chasm scenes isn’t just going through something dangerous or traumatic. They also spend time talking, arguing, challenging each other, learning about each other. They communicate. It isn’t after going through danger that we see them laughing and Kaladin almost miraculously smiling; we see that happening after Shallan shows that she has been broken too and can still be happy. And by the end of the book they haven’t actually fallen in love from the shared trauma or anything else. There’s some attraction there, but it’s not the focus; the key impact on their relationship is that they respect and understand each other better now.
So essentially, I’m saying that – as far I can see – what has happened between Kaladin and Shallan so far is not “they hate each other, they go through something dangerous, they fall in love”. It’s been “they hate each other, they communicate and come to some understanding, they go through something dangerous, they start to like each other and maybe begin to fall in love”. I don’t think what interest there is is coming just from shared excitement, danger, or trauma. There are deeper things going on, too. Not nearly enough to base a relationship on at this point, but that’s not what I would expect to happen. If Sanderson did go the Shallan/Kaladin route, these scenes would be a good foundation for further movement towards a romantic relationship. (And I would hope that movement would involve more than just going through more dangerous situations together.) So, YMMV but that’s how I’m seeing what happens in these chapters.
I should also note that Sanderson has used this kind of pattern in his other books. In the original Mistborn trilogy, Vin and Elend start off being somewhat suspicious of each other and participate in similar (though not nearly so vitriolic!) verbal sparring. Then they discover more about each other’s backgrounds, personalities, goals, etc., and only then do they really start to become interested in each other. And they still have to go through a whole book of working things out before they get married. The Alcatraz books also have a relationship that involves lots of snarking contests and aggravating each other at first, but later on we get scenes of them genuinely getting to know each other, finding common ground, and working together. Only then does any sort of romance start, and again there’s even more relationship development before there’s resolution to it. It’s been a while since I read Elantris, but IIRC it had something similar. So in Shallan/Kaladin I’m seeing the same pattern Sanderson has used effectively in other books: starting with antagonism, but moving to understanding and then romance. Not just jumping from antagonism to romance with a weak basis like shared trauma. That, I don’t care for. Honestly, I wouldn’t mind if Sanderson just cut those antagonistic phases; they’re more for entertainment than anything else, it seems.
(NB: I’m not saying I can predict Sanderson based on what he’s done in the past, because he can be slippery that way. He’ll use formulas, but then consciously react against them. He’ll play tropes straight, and he’ll also subvert and deconstruct them mercilessly. I have no confidence that he’ll write Shallan/Kaladin just because he’s written similar relationships in the past. Besides, he’s also written relationships closer to Adolin and Shallan’s. My point is that I think he’s done similar things in the past and done them well.)
But again, this is just my impression, given my experience of relationships in the particular books I’ve read. I really wasn’t kidding when I said that maybe I hadn’t read enough of the right kinds of books – I’m young enough that I haven’t had too many years to read books with that kind of active awareness, and I tend to read fiction without much romance.
By the way, very nice TVTropes lineup. I’ve already read most of those articles or else my productivity would be tanking right now. :)
@62 STBLST: I personally doubt they had a subconscious attraction from the start, but it is true that they both make comments from the beginning along the lines of, “How come HE can make me lose my temper and no one else can?!” It’s rather a stupid romantic trope, but it’s a trope nonetheless and Sanderson is communicating something by it. And I suppose there is Kaladin’s line, “It was like a part of him frantically wanted to dislike her”, though I tend to read that as coming from his hatred of lighteyes more than anything else.
I mentioned earlier that one can consider a pairing on the basis of what would be good for the characters, or what would be interesting for the readers; you bring up a third factor – what the author is likely to actually write. I agree that Sanderson is signalling attraction between Kaladin and Shallan, but I think at this point we really can’t predict where he’ll go with that. The revelation that Shallan and Kaladin are Radiants, the coming Desolation, Kaladin’s being off in Alethkar, Adolin’s recent killing of Sadeas, the impending arrival of Shallan’s brothers – there is a lot going on that could significantly change their relationships, depending on how it all plays out. Our judgements will be much better after Oathbringer.
@65 FenrirMoridin: Good thoughts. To be honest, I think my trust in Sanderson is part of why I’m able to ship Kaladin and Shallan in the first place. He has a very good track record with me not just of writing good stories, but also writing good romances based on trust and understanding. I believe that he’d do a great job with whatever pairing he wants to pursue, so I feel free to speculate knowing that in the end I’ll probably be happy regardless.
It’s a good point that Sanderson could very well be playing with the sorts of relationships he’s written before. Like I said, this is one of the tricky things about trying to predict him – you never know when he’s using a variation of his formula or when he’s chucking it altogether. Keeps things interesting!
On that note, I have to bring up this WoB sometime:
Something different:
So Shallan and Horneaters are like a pale Irish person?
With this reaction, I’m thinking Kaladin has to be of a darker completion than shown on the cover. Otherwise, Shallan’s pale skin would not strike him as this strange. All skin tones blush and go “paler” with emotion, but this makes me think the people he’s most familiar with have skin tones more in lines with full blooded Native American or Arabic decent. It seems to be the end spectrums he notes, not the middle.
Shallan’s just annoyed with how long legged he is. The curse of being short.
Shipping: I believe in the Mistborn Annotations, Brandon all put apologized for not pairing Vin & Kelsier together. That was one reason why he included the “Mare always wanted a daughter.” Since the common trope is the first single male and female PoV people read in a book, get paired up romantically. However, I can’t find the annotations on his website anymore.
He also originally wrote Vin as a guy, so that helps explains another reason why he didn’t pair them. (Writing Excuses podcast 4.9.) Once he made Vin female, the romance with Elend became possible.
But I did see that SA3 first draft is at 44%! progress!
Not necessarily true, though I agree in this case. Male!Vin/Elend, done properly, would probably be more complicated than Vin/Elend, since there’d be the complications in canon plus whatever the gay adds. I think it would make for a rather different story. I guess if I want that story, I’ll have to write it myself.
@70 – The Alethi skin tones is modelled off Koreans and with the Alethi cultural domination this is the “normal” from which other skin tones are generally compared. I think Shallan’s skin tones are supposed to be typical for Europe.
@72: That makes sense. Thanks. Yet many Koreans can be rather pale themselves. Which still leaves Shallan as super pale red-head. :-D
@71: Indeed. Have fun writing it. How do you think Elend and his father’s relationship would be different? It’s pretty hostile already, so I don’t think much would change.
wcarter @58:
“OK. We’ll have to base it on sex then.”
@74 bad_platypus
Dont drag Keanu Reeves into this (although I suppose if you saw the god-awful Speed 2 you’ll notice that they aren’t still together).
Still there is one thing that I’ve wondered for months now: Assuming Kaladin ever does get a girlfriend–regardless of who it might be–how will Syl react? She kind of seems like the jealous type to me, and she is definitely an incurable prankster. Would any potential girlfriend of Kal’s be safe from harassment with Syl around?
@73 I think it’d mostly depend on what the general feeling towards homosexuality is. It might not actually be any different, since the dominant thread is “stop playing around and grow up.”
I was thinking more of Vin’s relationship to the rest of the ball-going set.
@75 I suspect it has to do with whether or not Syl likes her. If liked, the pranks are gentle teasing; if not liked, probably destructive but not harmful. Shallan would certainly be in for it, but I think it’d quickly turn into a cold war between Pattern and Syl.
@71,72, &73
IIRC, Brandon has said that Alethi culture is based off of medieval Korean culture but I don’t think I remember him saying that Alethi skin tones were based off Korean skin tones.
If you go to the Coppermind it says that “Alethi are modeled on half Asian and half Hawaiian people, and according to Brandon, picturing Alethi as looking east-Indian works very well.”
I got my chapters mixed up, I thought it was the next one where Shallan ‘apologises’ to Kaladin but it’s this one. One week late but what the heck, I draw your attention to the following section –
“You want a better example of you playing with people beneath you? Fine. You stole my boots. You pretended to be someone you weren’t and bullied a darkeyed guard you’d barely met. Is that a good enough example of you playing with someone you saw as beneath you?”
She stopped in her tracks. he was right, there. She wanted to blame Tyn’s influence, but his comment cut the bite out of her argument.
He stopped ahead of her, looking back. Finally, he sighed. “Look, I’m not holding a grudge about the boots. From what I’ve seen lately, you’re not as bad as the others. So let’s leave it at that.”
“Not as bad as the others? What a delightful compliment. Well, let’s say you’re right. Perhaps I am an insensitive rich woman. That doesn’t change the fact that you can be downright mean and offensive, Kaladin Stormblessed.”
He shrugged
“That’s it? I apologize, and all I get in return is a shrug?”
Can anyone point out to me how any of that was an apology? I’ve read it a few times but nope, no apology there. The closest we get is her basically saying ‘let’s both pretend that you are right’, as in ‘you’re not right but let’s imagine a world where you are’. An apology would involve an actual admission of wrongdoing and an expression of regret for said act.
She seems to have mistaken what she briefly thought for what she then actually said. What she actually said was two pieces of sarcasm followed by a condescending perhaps then finished with an (admittedly accurate) insult.
@78
I would agree with you. As far as apologies goes that one sucked and wasn’t really much of one.
Light eyes are white people
Dark eyes are non-white people